Could surround support be potentially considered (post release)?

[Magical_Unicorn]

Hi Radical Team,

I’m sure you guys/girls have more than enough to contend with pushing towards the official release of Radical-1, but within a short time of exploring and experiencing this intriguing new synthesiser I figured with its potential for complex layers of evolving sound, it would be an incredible candidate for post production use by being able to compose with it in 3D surround (support for assign and output layers/submixes either as DOLBY ATMOS objects or a channel based separation method and format like 7.1.4 etc)?

Regardless there’s existing workaround’s in fact it grabbed my interest that you released a Solo version as technically it could be used to deconstruct a complex patch by separating it into individual hosted parts which are then assigned to individual tracks and manually rendered out. Whether the Solo version is any lighter and can be used in this way is another thing, but you could also always Solo a layer (or submix) in an instance of Radical-1 and bounce it down to individual tracks for further reconstruction.

Then these stems could be reconstituted to form a dynamic object bed in Dolby Atmos or brought into software such as Sound Particles for a channel based solution! I’m going to explore these possible workflows anyway to see how practical (or insane) they are but it’s certainly an intriguing potential feature for consideration! I figured it wouldn’t harm to mention it at least as a possible future feature addition!

I guess it’s difficult with feature requests like that as it’s a somewhat advanced feature set (that’s clearly not for everybody) and subsequently down to relative interest and reception etc. I guess it could always be a scaled tier based rollout subject to user interest and feedback (e.g. Radical-1 Solo for casual users, Radical-1 for pro users, and Radical-1 Post with surround support for the Post Production community etc).

It’s an exciting time for 3D sound as all the major streaming companies are gradually adopting Spatial Audio solutions such as Dolby Atmos (although naturally the music catalogues are somewhat limited currently). However, they are growing all the same as is the need for spatial producers and compatible creative tools that are spatial friendly with their output format options so they can be integrated easily within a spatial pipeline etc. There’s not many music tools around currently that support this new paradigm however so it’s still somewhat of a niche (Native Instruments Absynth, Skydust3D, Sound Particles DAW, Eventide released spatial versions of Blackhole and MicroPitch etc, Davinci Resolve added Atmos etc!

I read the manual twice over before asking any questions, but there’s no mention of spatial output support so I just wanted to reach out and share my thoughts concerning this possible feature suggestion anyway as you’ve clearly already made quite an impact on the post production community so I hope it helps! Thanks!

[luke]

Hello Magical Unicorn!

Thanks for your feedback! Yes we’ve considered spatial output and it’s not a priority for our v1 release, but it’s definitely a cool feature and I’d love to have it post release!

We are currently a bit tied to stereo with our pan knob/modulation, but I’m dreaming of a more involved type of pan control (forgive me if this is simple-minded, I haven’t worked with spatial very much yet personally) – perhaps instead of L/R we could have a “radial pan”, like radius and angle modulatable… or something like that. Since you apparently work with spatial a lot, do you have any dreams about what a synthesizer might be able to do?

[Magical_Unicorn]

Hi Luke, thank you for your awesome reply! That’s incredible to discover that you’re open to exploring spatial support in the future! I think Radical is already one of my dream synths, really blown away by its spacious sound stage and powerful dynamic additive engine! Your panner suggestion is much appreciated and by no means simple-minded, but logical and actually the method used by Native Instruments Absynth (I don’t use it, but I explored the manual being a nerd)!

Spatial support could range from a fully integrated surround panner that is interpreted to a standard format (2.0 to 7.1) this is how Absynth works, or by simply providing (exposing) additional output channels to the DAW (e.g. a pair of stereo channels L/R for each new sound layer that is created). This is the simplest way to provide a basic level of spatial support as it means a single instance of Radical can render out multiple audio stream simultaneously instead of just stereo.

This also means that all the panning in 3D space (and movement) has to be handled externally purely by the Dolby ATMOS render engine (for example) as its sound objects can be located and moved anywhere you want using DAW automation tracks. There’s dynamic 3D panner’s too such as Brightness Panner, Energy Panner from companies like Sound Particles (which I own and use).

All major DAW’s support ATMOS now (except Ableton which I love) but its unique as a live tool and not really what its for but I would imagine they’ll add support in time when immersive production and live music venues get more mainstream. It has a surround panner anyway, but Fiedler Audio’s Dolby ATMOS Composer fills the gap as its DAW agnostic and adds additional useful features.

Naturally, Radical’s effects would be output in stereo based on the virtual speaker (Object) positions, but with an ability to use additional 3D spatial surround FX such as Micro Pitch/Blackhole Immersive by Eventide, or Verberate Immersive by Acon Digital etc, to glue the space together. This is already the case with existing recordings (see below) that are captured acoustically with room dynamics or have FX baked directly into them and summed (spaces within spaces) …mind bending!

The big difference in workflow is between something created from scratch (Electronic Music in particular as it suits dynamic movement and motion) and material recorded specifically to recreate a 3D scene (e.g. a band or orchestra) where the positions of instruments are more specific and static (with movement coming from flourishes of instrumentation rather than actual spatial movement).

From what I’ve been able to understand from researching the area its a diverse and highly experimental field but a large portion of material is often produced from existing stereo mixes (or mono/stereo recordings) that are being remixed for spatial (be it ATMOS or otherwise) by re-purposing stems and sub-mixes, or recreating live sets/spaces from multi channel recordings etc.

So really this is new territory as artists and producers are inventing unorthodox techniques, and methodologies (and learning through trial and error) to see what works and doesn’t work. As stereo has been around since the dawn of time, we understand its language very well (as do our ears) and its as mature as its ever going to be! However, immersive audio (although it’s existed in games for a long ass time) and surround speaker systems are nothing new, the language of creating with it is an entirely new vocabulary (especially for producers used to working in 2 dimensions).

However, universities are supporting the next generation of creatives and engineers who are lucky enough to have access to these technologies from the start so over time the worlds slowly getting on board and adapting to the changing environments, workflows and tools available to them. The wonderful thing about experiencing immersive however is that all you need is a pair of headphones as the Head Related Transforms (HRTF) and Binaural rendering take care of the rest without need for expensive environments (at the start at least) providing wide access to spatial audio …yayy!

Thank you so much for kindly providing me with an opportunity to share my interests and opinions about this exciting new synth (which I’m absolutely smitten with already)! I’ve been lost in it since day 1 as its already incredible! However, I’m going to have a good think about your question whilst I explore the aforementioned workflows: 1) Rendering Radical directly into Dolby ATMOS (Object based) within Cubase/Wavelab. 2) Running Radical in real time as a VST3 as well as pre-rendered offline in Sound Particles (channel based) as that will be really insightful and allow me to further familiarize myself with its weirding ways - then I’ll report back here! Many thanks Luke!

[Magical_Unicorn]

Hi Team Radical,

As promised, I’ve been exploring ‘Radical-1’ spatially and thus begun going through the motions of using it in a variety different scenarios to establish in which ways it might be enhanced to make this process as fluid as possible (should it be expanded for spatial output/Post in the future)!

The aforementioned opinions/ideas still stand in terms of the approaches I’m aware of but a proper investigation is required! That said I thought it would be really nice to start by making a simple ‘Radical’ demo I could post here to give you (and the community) an idea of what this awesome synth sounds like in Dolby Atmos 9.1.6 down mixed to Binaural (to facilitate sharing it here)!

So I figured I’d try out Fiedler’s agnostic solution as you can use it to gift Ableton 3D wings (and I’m really loving Ableton currently)! Conveniently Fiedler provides a simple means of achieving this (e.g. you can render the headphone output)! This rocks as Atmos is challenging to share unlike stereo!

The original is pretty huge @ 24 Bits/48 kHz but can be wrangled down to a few MB instead?

However, whilst trying to upload it here as MP3, I realized the forum only allows image formats which left me scuppered (but I knew that was a possibility as its rare that you can)! However, as its kind of cool and useful to Radical-1’ development I wondered if you’d consider hosting them here?

…‘them’ as there are dry/wet versions (dry for pure Radical-1 adoration, wet for Post Prod context)!

If it’s not possible no worries, I could try another way; time permitting (e.g. like Bandcamp - assuming they allow things like that)!? That said I don’t know if their embedded player would even manifest here etc? As such, I just thought I’d reach out to ‘Team Radical’ and see what you think? I can always email it to you to check out 1st and see if you even dare host it… it’s a little wild! lol

“Doomed spacecraft falling into a blackhole”, (00.02.50) inspired by the film Interstellar using a single preset (only 1 layer); all made lovingly by moi after discovering your crazy ass synth!

[yair]

However, whilst trying to upload it here as MP3, I realized the forum only allows image formats which left me scuppered (but I knew that was a possibility as its rare that you can)! However, as its kind of cool and useful to Radical-1’ development I wondered if you’d consider hosting them here?

Please try now - uploading MP3s should be enabled. Curious to hear it!

[Magical_Unicorn]

Hi Yair,

Thanks for your support (although you might regret it) lol… but here goes! This is deliberately just a quick, raw (e.g. no EQ or Compression etc) binaural mix-down to provide a feel for what ‘R1’ sounds like in 3D sonic space! It consists of 5 stereo channels of audio panned to create a dynamic object bed (although nothing moves) based on a standard surround setup (but with ceiling satellites)!

There’s no LFE (Low Frequency FX) channel, although from experience R1 is clearly capable of producing some frightening low end grunts, groans and rumbles, …but there’s no additional FX like the hyperventilating pilot or their panicking heart beat either! However, less is more and painting them in with your mind is far more fun and also good yoga exercise for the creative imagination!

“Doomed spacecraft falling into a black-hole”, (00:02:50) Dry Version:

“Doomed spacecraft falling into a black-hole”, (00:02:50) Wet Version:

DISCLAIMER:

I accept no responsability for the state of your melon (or ears) through deliberate exposure!

PS: Please remember this requires headphones to experience it as intended… Enjoy!

[Magical_Unicorn]

BTW: Please let me know if the quality is too high (320kbps/48kHz) and I’ll replace them with (128kbps/44.1kHz) versions on request as naturally I totally appreciate being able to share them here but don’t want to freak the server out either! Many thanks for your help and support!

[yair]

Beautiful (and troubling) scene you’ve painted there!

[Magical_Unicorn]

Hi Yair, ha ha… thanks man!

Yeah I love my dark sci-fi scenarios (huge gamer/film fanatic) …the more macabre the better! Plus I realised I’ve inadvertently got this year’s Halloween background ambient loop covered - bonus! For any future examples I’ll definitely shift towards more accessible (read: prettier), delicate program material (ambient/melodic) …gentle waves of evolving synthesis flowing through you etc!

The future of electronica is definitely spatial (that’s for sure) but it goes without saying Radical is highly capable for post production sound FX (even via my limited exposure to it)! Further, I’ve had an idea of how that could possibly be taken even further (but I’ll put that in another thread) as it’s not specifically spatial, but more general sound design orientated! That is …if it’s even needed, as it’s obviously already very powerful (I’ve hardly even scratched the surface yet) …but I figure it’s better to just throw ideas out there into the digital ether regardless to see if they’re useful to y’all!

[luke]

First I have to say, my heart rate went up probably about 15 bpm listening to that. With a sound designer like you I might not even need to hit the gym!

You paint an exciting picture, and I love trying to innovate in spaces where the vocabulary is not yet established (perhaps to my own demise – authors who invent too many of their own words tend to be pretty tough reads). Thanks for the inspiration, and ATMOS is definitely more on my mind now. At the very least, each layer to a different output channel pair is not such a hard thing to do and might be a lot of bang for the buck.

[Magical_Unicorn]

Hi Luke,

Ha ha I’m just glad it didn’t traumatise you (…too much at least)! RE: heartbeat, me too (it’s those descending, jarring micro shifting tones that give it a vertigo edge) …well that and the screaming and wailing celestial banshees! I’m really enjoying exploring Radical1 anyway, the additive engine is gorgeous and produces wild frequencies, timbres and textures. Naturally, I’ve hardly scratched the surface at this stage, but I can’t wait to fully learn its weirding ways as it’s one wild ass synth!

Thank you for the feedback, I’m really excited about the prospect of you considering implementing outputs for each layer as I agree that is the most efficient route to allowing it to spread its 3D wings! It also feels like the most forward thinking approach too because a standard surround Panner is really cool, but surround also has technical limitations yet maintains compatibility (as a legacy).

In Atmos, traditional surround (up to 10 channels comprising of 7.1.2) form a ‘bed’ which is channel based and sits in a reserved area (just for it). It doesn’t take advantage of the higher spatial ninja abilities of Atmos (achieved only through its native sound objects) which allow the renderer to automatically scale the audio stream dynamically to what ever system the host is using (>9.1.6).

However, legacy surround exists in abundance, and thus the ‘bed’ is a necessity as it provides a means to coexist and adapt to both the new and old in matrimonial bliss (not forgetting ambisonics too)! So as spatial technology continues to develop, there’s persuasion on either side of the fence. Regardless, when you author content you can choose between placing sound in the bed or as dynamic objects (in the Dolby Atmos Renderer); so the choice still remains regardless of the source!

Further, being able to route individual layers to separate channels (in itself) opens up all kinds of insane creative possibilities (in additional to its spatial awakening) so it sure feels like an amazing super power to bestow upon Radical (like Neo in Matrix when he learns how to fly) super cool anyway - kudos! → OBJECT BEDS (OBEDS) IN DOLBY ATMOS MUSIC – Omni Soundlab

[Magical_Unicorn]

Radical-1 Multichannel Integration (early) Considerations:

Regarding updating Radical some of the following initial observations spring to mind based upon how it is currently configured and what might potentially need to adapt (e.g. design considerations):

FX are tied to the stereo bus currently (send FX), so are lost on the individual multichannel outputs (however this also allows you to apply your own external FX exclusively); while not forgetting also being able to use them creatively as side chains or triggers/feeds to drive other software.

This seems like a practical solution without interfering with the existing engine (or performance) as the alternative necessitates implementing per layer insert FX (to maintain FX on each individual multichannel output). Naturally highly impractical (but allows continued use of the internal FX library). Hence, by processing layers externally places the FX outside Radical as part of the choice of separating the channel, and that seems a reasonable trade-off (without upsetting everything).

Building upon this notion is providing an option to add layers to the stereo bus or subtract it (multi channel output only), or choose both (individual output + stereo bus with FX) as then you have flexibility regarding both! Such an option could simply be adding an additional toggle that switches between these options on each layer (as one possible solution)! This way you get the option to have the individual clean out either with or without the stereo mix + FX for maximum flexibility!

Just initial thoughts I figured to share at this stage as they form implications for adding additional outs. Actually via obsessing about spatial I’ve overthought this functionality, being simply individual outputs (as with classic drum machines like the Roland R8, Yamaha RY-30 etc) without which you were hampered by an inability to treat specific sounds without affecting the entire mix-bus.

This next week I’m going to focus upon using Radical for Atmos production in Cubase by taking a deep dive (having examined Fiedler, Ableton and Wavelab thus far) as this should provide a valuable insight into integration within a cohesive multichannel workflow. Having clinically analysed the specifications over the weekend, the multichannel outputs appear to be all that’s required but I’ll be sure to provide any further insights as I explore that process via a summary when complete!

[Magical_Unicorn]

Radical-1 Multichannel Integration and Spatial Support (Summary):

Dear Team Radical, as promised I’ve been investigating using a multichannel version of Radical-1 in a Dolby Atmos configuration (as a proof of concept), and figured the best approach was to simulate it using an existing multichannel VST instrument (as a lite option to having multiple instances of Radical-1 running needlessly)! Radical-1 is incredibly fast considering what its Additive Engine is capable of, but multichannel configurations tend to be on the heavy side; especially when you’re running multiple go between renderers like myself in the form of SoundID for headphone tuning or correction, the internal Atmos Renderer for 3D spatial virtualisation, and APL’s Virtuoso Atmos Re-Renderer for more advanced binaural support (custom HRTF, SOFA support etc) …which all helps!

Subject to that, as mentioned previously, according to the specifications I’ve encountered, all of the ingredients appear to already be in place in Cubase Pro but as its not exotic I would imagine its also relatively straight forward in any major DAW that support Atmos (Pro Tools, Logic, Studio One etc).

Above is the resulting minimal 7.1.4 Atmos project space consisting of the Dolby Atmos Renderer, the 7.1.2 Standard Bed (required for it to function), an instance of Steinberg’s Groove Agent VSTi drum machine outputting 12 individual Stereo Channels that are routed into the 7.1.2 Bed via the Cubase Pro VST MultiPanner (required for positioning things in 3D space) which are then routed to the Dolby Atmos Renderer as Sound Objects and basically line the walls of the virtual Atmos space.

I hoped to provide another spatial demo, but I’ve been too busy with research and I was really more interested at this stage in just checking the feasibility of it. Technically, all you have to do is replace the Groove Agent VSTi with the potentially future updated Radical-1 with Multi Channel support, and she’s up and running! As such, it would be nice to update this thread with a further (read less traumatic) Radical Atmos demo in future, but in the meantime I just wanted to provide an update.

A possible added feature could be to allow the option of individual MIDI data to be assigned on a per Layer basis (e.g. either the Global MIDI stream or the ability to receive individual MIDI streams that can be routed to any specific layers of choice). Hence, a MIDI input option per layer that is either assigned to a Global or Individual stream, as this would empower Radical with workstation like qualities (e.g. use it like a drum machine to create ‘sound events’; or have complex structures of interwoven Additive layers following different melodic MIDI patterns and MPE expressions - wild!

Not so much a feature request, but rather an observation that seemed worthy to note here (and likely heavily influenced by my love of drum machines) …and the fact that I was simulating in one lol! I couldn’t help but imagine an option to drive Radical internally (purely as a powerful synth) but also externally through integration with ‘others’ allowing it to be used as a workstation and 3D spatial synth (and much more) was ‘enticing’ to say the least! In this sense there could simply be an option on the I/O part of each Radical Layer that asks → “do you want to use the Global MIDI stream or an Individual Input” and further → “do you want to use the Global Output or an individual Output”?

Magical Unicorns think up wild ideas (it’s what they do best), but naturally; that’s a far cry from the reality of the coding and integration required to implement such (thus messing with the beautiful, delicate butterfly that is Radical-1) but they’re simply ideas for its possible evolution, so please make of them as you will! Regardless, Radical-1’ a wonderful synth with an incredibly lush sound and deeply inspiring. I hope the above is useful, and I’ll be sure to update this thread with a sonic treat (as a prize for making it through my prose and still being conscious/compos mentis)! As such I hope this is helpful to you all, and that things are awesome in Team Radical Land …kind regards!